Curse

Lakdav · Sep 16, 2010, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Lemming succesfuly pointed the 2 biggest update that i remember, of course there are points in those that proved to be bad ideas. But there are points in there that are valid and working to this day. Saying that those updates failed entirely becouse they couldnt solve all the problems they intended to solve is simply wrong.

Improvement is any update that has a positive effect. The game is feakin 5 years old, at this age the best positive effect is staying alive. Change can bring life into it, and there are no changes of significant size that are only positive or only negative.

Leek · Sep 16, 2010, 10:22 AM // 10:22

star trek onlines genesis engine created randomly geneated instances and those were so much fun. nothing like seeing the 6 areas and mob groups mixed up over and over. Id rather have the devs spend their time crafting a few good instances rather than a crap system like genesis.

I love title hunting, it gives me goals to achieve ingame where id otherwise be twiddling my thumbs wondering what to do. If youdont like it then dont do them, there no need to remove optional content that a large proportion of the playerbase enjoys.

snowman relic · Sep 16, 2010, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRanger

-Heroes/henchman

I dont think henchman caused gw's downfall they have always been weak and never reliable in the event of a almost group wipe so people when given the chance would chose humans over hanchies every day. now hero's on the other hand killed any playing with a party what so ever.

jayson · Sep 16, 2010, 11:24 AM // 11:24

The problem in any game where players can choose what build is best for others is that most other players are sheep. Once someone creates a build that works, people flock to it as the holy grail of builds. They usually refuse to accept other builds that even though not as powerful or efficient, actually work. So these players who refuse the idea that there's more then one effective build for a scenario will plug their ear and refuse until the very same people they looked to for the last ultimate build (pvx) present a new one. Then the cycle continues. Even the last efficient build that was accepted widely is now frowned upon. GW was actually a pretty easy game to play pve wise. The chances of failure were pretty slim even with random builds most people would laugh at today. I always thought that GW was based on that. As for GW2, you can bet the same thing will happen. It's just the nature of the community.

RedStar · Sep 16, 2010, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Kind of like Racthoh said, if you want to play that game with fun builds etc. you have to find a good and fun guild. And really it isn't that hard (maybe now it is, dunno, I stopped playing with guilds since I can't play every week).

And the wiki and the farms were there in the early stage (around July at least). Sure, it wasn't as detailed as now, but people didn't complain about it then because not everyone knew about the wiki. (Same thing for farming. Remember 55 monks with prot bond ? ettin farming ? griffon farming ?).

And a few weeks after Sorrow Furnance, builds started emerging (ss, BiP, echo+MS).

The titles topic has been beaten to death, so...

In the end, I still find GW fun, even if in the past there's been so bad updates. And even 5 years later, many people don't know everything about it.

jazilla · Sep 16, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

i understand where you are coming from OP, but you can still play GW the way you want. You don't have to use solo farming builds, you don't have to play meta and you don't have to listen to the people that whisper "nub" because they spent more time looking at what you were running in PvP than worrying about killing the enemy. I run what sounds fun to me regardless of what people think. Granted, I don't go into RA running around being a nuisance but I also don't feel the need to squeeze out an extra 2 DPS if I don't feel like running the latest cookie-cutter pvx biz.

jray14 · Sep 16, 2010, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Guild Wars endgame was supposed to be PvP,

I think that was the main design mistake they made with GW1. They didn't do their market research to figure out that most PVE'ers prefer to stick with PVE. The other one was having too many skills. 1319 or however many they have now is way too many to keep balanced with the staff they have.

I don't think there's anything wrong with titles. Without titles you wouldn't have more players doing non-grindy things; you'd have more players not playing.

I agree that it'd be nice to have more randomness in the instances. All there is in GW1 is very slight variation in the placement and composition of a small percentage of enemy groups.

Skyy High · Sep 16, 2010, 02:43 PM // 14:43

First problem is largely solved by no secondaries, half your skillbar being fixed, and there being much fewer skills in the game.

Second problem is largely solved by making ALL titles account-wide. Just play whatever you want, you'll make progress in something.

Swahnee · Sep 16, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

From what i understood following similar posts in the past years, things went like this: the game started as a PvP (GvG in particular) game, with a little PvE tutorial, also connected with PvE through lore/tombs and favor of the gods which opened UW/FOW (still can't figure out what was the deal with Fissure armor..something to do when relaxing from PvP maybe? Then they planned to release a new campaign every 6 months, so maybe there were some PvE path in their original design?).

However, the PvP momentum kept growing (making GW's initial great success) until ANet guys found themselves low on cash after the big GvG tournaments with real world prizes. When no new big tournament were possible any more, most of the PvP playerbase left, making PvP to start his downhill road. The only possible solution left to the developers was to focus on PvE (since more people are willing to play the relaxing PvE than the hardcore and difficult to learn PvP, expecially if PvP has no real-world prize...sports' way of thinking seems to be absent from the web), and since this is a F2P game, they had to give people cheap but "addicting" things to do, which basically means titles, and rare-fancy items which you have to farm for hours to find.

Keeping people into the game, in my opinion, is a cheap and clever marketing solution to advertise the game: the more people keep being enthusiastic of the game, the more they will spread the voice and bring new people in (who have to pay the starting price, the same thing imho is true for micro-transactions: if you like the game you buy new slots, name-change etc.).

Then, since there aren't money left, nor developers to design and implement new quests, areas, elite missions, etc., it's rather obvious that the PvE will start to become boring and repetitive, which caused the introduction of hard mode/zaishen things/nicholas, and the increasing focus on titles (EotN, Zaishen).

As far as heroes are concerned, i think that their introduction was ment to give casual players (those who can't rely on guild/ally nor PuG to play because they play really rarely) a reason to have fun (read: to purchase the game), too. However, i agree that this thing actually killed the multi-player aspect of the game, and i don't know if this has been foreseen when they were first designed.

Regarding the meta/PvX thing, i rather agree with other posters that this is something "natural" that happens in games because since there are rewars, people will find a way to obtain them in the easier way possible, there's no solution to it, other than maybe keep rocking the meta changing skills on a regular basis.

So, from my point of view the tide turned after ANet gave up (for serious reasons it seems) with the high-end PvP part of the game (that with real world prizes), since a F2P game seems hardly able to maintain PvE updates, like P2P's do, such as WoW etc. Updates to PvE mean new areas, quests, monsters etc..all difficult and expensive things to implement, while updates to PvP mean regular skill updates, setting up of monthly tournaments and their monitoring, which seem to be cheaper tasks to accomplish, so from this point of view the first idea of the developers was nice: "let's do a PvP F2P game which is easy and cheap to maintain". This also had the power to bring GW at a similar level of WoW, regarding competitiveness, because WoW's PvP seems to be not so impressive, while i heard a lot of people saying that GW's one is way better than that of a lot of other games. However, this couldn't last forever.

In the end, so, i really don't see how things could have been gone differently. I don't like titles and PvX wiki existence too, but the other face of the coin is that they probably kept this game alive, in terms of people actually playing. Maybe if developers didn't spend so much money with big tournaments, while instead focusing on maintaining regular automated tournaments and PvP skill updates, they could have reached their starting goal making a long, stable PvP game.

However, i don't know if web's people would have brought GW's PvP that up without real life prizes (i always see people stating that they play to win or to get material rewards rather than for the fun of the game and the competition, which doesn't require winning or being payed for, and if you ever played sports in real life you know what i mean).

Probably there's a good chance that i've missed out and misunderstood a lot of things in my description of GW's history. I would really appreciate that better informed people enlight me up on this subject.

Aeons · Sep 16, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

GW was originally supposed to have a little more focus into the PvP aspect as you might compare to WoW or something along those lines, but not just entirely PvP. It did become the same thing, most likely with titles and with titles came restriction. That's why there are rank 10+ groups in Heroes Ascent. They will only team with players of their rank/experience....no one else outside of the guild/friend zone.

What I think really ruined the game is the unrestricted skill bar and PvXwiki. When I see a new player ask for some build ideas, all I see are people saying "Look it up on wiki"...I know there's many people who have builds that blow Discord necros out of the water in terms of damage and healing, but will they post it on wiki? No, because then every man and their dog will be using it in a few days. But in all honesty who hasn't used wiki on an occasion? Occasion I feel is okay, using it for every new pvp character you make? That's where it needs to be different for GW2, else it will turn into the same thing as here.

My input

FoxBat · Sep 16, 2010, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insaneguy75

Anyways, GW2 does have many new mechanics, but the 'build system' that gives GW its uniqueness is basically the same. The core concepts are there.

It's not, that's what I'm trying to get at. The most important skills you will use and re-use again are preselected by your weapon class. The skills you can choose have huge recharges and thus don't change your playstyle greatly. There is some min-maxing to be had with traits and stuff, but it's not going to have as dramatic an impact on playstyle the way mixing up your GW1 bar does. GW2 does retain the concept of being able to "respec" fairly quickly and effortlessly, but there is more affinity to the limited specializations that are pre-built for classes found in other MMOs, than really making your "own" build from scratch.

RedDog91 · Sep 16, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

So...your analysis is that while GW1 is a good game, there were issues, and that you think GW2 will be fun. Correct?

STUNNING DEVELOPMENT!
You, my friend, are a master of observation and deduction.

StormDragonZ · Sep 16, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I honestly don't care about GW2 at all.

Unless I wake up tomorrow, find out that in order to understand the beginning of GW2 is to read those books they'll be producing between last year and when GW2 comes out, then perhaps I might be concerned.

TheodenKing · Sep 16, 2010, 09:43 PM // 21:43

You are very articulate for a teenager. Kudos on that. I believe the "meta" issue will not be solved by having less skills. Meta results from intelligent players coming up with an efficient way of doing something, then passing that info on to others. So meta builds will always emerge for certain activities. The only thing that will stop that is if the players decide that pugs should be flexible... an anti meta theme. I'm afraid greed is powerful, though. So I don't see meta dissappearing.

As for gw2... They have released a decent amount of info with respect to race, professions, traits, skill mechanics, and dynamic events. Check out the gw2 guru. I am very excited for the game. I don't know if I'll love it. But I do know it is hard not to be burned out with gw1 at this point. So for me and many others, it is time for something new. Which brings me to one more point... If gw was heavily populated with players, it would have more life. gw2 is surely going to give us a game with life.

The mass exodus of burned out WoW players will begin on the launch date.

Apple · Sep 16, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

Meta builds will always emerge for certain activities. The only thing that will stop that is if the players decide that pugs should be flexible... an anti meta theme.

I think the point should be made that if pugs are seen by the community to be flexible, then that constitutes an implicit message to Anet that either PvE is far too easy or that skills are perfectly balanced (which is unlikely, all things considered).
Metagames are vital for games to remain consistently interesting.

Phaern Majes · Sep 17, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Codex PvE, limited but different skills to play every week or so. I can hear the cries of anguish already.

As for 55's that build existed long before Factions. I obtained Obsidian armor for my Ranger by farming with my monk. Troll/Giant runs outside Droks and Snake Dance, and 55/SS in UW.

As for titles they didn't ruin the game, like others said meta builds are bound to happen regardless for whatever reason. All titles did was give people something to grind for rather than just virtual gold and rare weapons.

Basically if you let other people's play styles ruin your fun, you should probably be playing another game. The only way any of those things can ruin it for you is if you actually care about competing in PvE for epeen. Want to compete go play PvP, otherwise find a nice guild that has a similar mindset about running "fun" builds over "efficient"

Still Number One · Sep 17, 2010, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakdav

Lemming succesfuly pointed the 2 biggest update that i remember, of course there are points in those that proved to be bad ideas. But there are points in there that are valid and working to this day. Saying that those updates failed entirely becouse they couldnt solve all the problems they intended to solve is simply wrong.

The only problem those updates were designed to solve was the GvG end game, and the problem was not even close to being fixed. All it did was make a dumbed down and even easier to abuse endgame mechanic.

The skill changes in those updates weren't done to address balance issues. They were done because the people in charge viewed the job of skill changes as a way to "shake up" the meta, rather than as an attempt to balance it and promote skilled play.

At that point in time the game was already in a degenerate abusive state, and those updates made the game exponentially worse off than the state it was originally in. To make matters worse, after fixing the biggest mistakes with the first Elite Skill update, they showed they clearly didn't learn their lesson and created that second one.

Those two updates pretty much eliminated any hope of this game ever shifting toward a balanced skilled play meta game, and pretty much forced everyone to accept the reality that the game would for now on just be, abusing degenerate dumbed down skills and not have to worry about anything but sliding their face against a keyboard and hoping you did it better than your opponent.

Throughout the history of this game it has been proven time and time again that the best way to manage the game was always to allow the players to change the meta on their own by coming up with counters to the current meta, and then counters to the counters, and so on. The only updating that needed to be done, was the occasional nerf of an overpowered skill or concept that promoted degenerate play, or very small skill tweaks that change up the game a little bit and keep it fresh without creating anything that can become abused. It is easier said then done, but those two Elite skill updates were so far from minor skill tweaks, that it is just pathetic that anyone could have thought those changes would have been good for the game. The foresight of the people who have been involved in the skill updates throughout the years is nothing short of pathetic and has led to the majority of the community realizing it is foolish to assume they will change anytime soon.

chuckles79 · Sep 19, 2010, 05:45 AM // 05:45

I can tell you the exact moment that GW1 ceased being fun. It's when suddenly SF sins were running everywhere, doing everything, and ruining the economy.
While I appreciate the Anet staff for being measured in it's nerf, it should have been nerfed completely.

The same goes for the Ursan period (I missed most of that, taking my time doing EotN)

It's created an environment that encourages everyone, every time a large single profession buff happens (get your dervs ready everyone) to rush out and quickly get a character in that profession with the uber meta OP'd skill to do elite areas with.

How many rits are now out there with no other skills than SoS and Glaive? You might find a few who were intelligent and have Signet of Ghostly Might and Soul Twisting, but for the most part they only have SoS.

Now mesmers weren't as bad, and it's scary how many of them are not running Panic LOL

However it just keeps going and going.

How about this, if any Team build (non hero, don't touch my Discordway LOL) calls for 5 or more of a single profession all using the same elite...nerf the crap out of it.

Let's go back to one tank, 1 offensive minded melee, 1-2 midline physicals, 2 healers, and 2-3 utility casters.
Isn't that how FoW SC's are done, and most SCs for that matter?

Missing HB · Sep 19, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I can tell you the exact moment that GW1 ceased being fun. It's when suddenly SF sins were running everywhere, doing everything, and ruining the economy.
While I appreciate the Anet staff for being measured in it's nerf, it should have been nerfed completely.

Problem is that adding dhuum and other made it almost impossible for non-perma teams in uw for example ( i know it's doable , but it takes very long, and you still need a very exped group.., while any pug perma team can clear it in half an hour...). But yes , GW ceased to be fun after almost 3consecutives fails : SF nerf failing , Removal from heroes in PvP and its consequences ,and the recent promises ( new HA map , skill updates , dervish content ) not appearing .....
Although i got to say Battle in lion arch and items after it were nice , the rest of WiK was by far too repetitive after you did it once ( especially Wanted quests...)

diabiosx · Sep 19, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

SF sins and 55monking(invented in the begining of the game) is exactly the same concept. So SF sins didnt kill the game. GW stopped being fun because people have played it for a long time. There are Other games out there, really really good ones like WoW, gears of war, Halo, uncharted, Resident evil, Call of Duty. GW stopped being fun when it has been out competed by other games with new content for your enjoyment.

Final Fantasy 7 was sooo fun, I spend 300hours on it and then I realized I did everything I wanted to do in that game.

Counter Strike was sooo fun until I realized thats modern warfare.

All of you guys probably spent thousands of hours in GW. That is fun enough.

AGE and lack of new stuff to do killed this game, not the updates or power creeps.
PvP stopped being "competitive"(pretty loose term) when theres no more real life rewards.